sarah_frost: ...Anyone?

why don't animate skeletons ever get slashed? (

sarah_frost) wrote,
@ 2006-05-04 07:16:00

Current mood:	busy
Entry tags:	feminism, writing

...Anyone?
If you can provide me with even one example of a book/movie/show resembling the following:

- the hero, the villain and the majority of their associates are female;
- those few males who appear are minor, ineffective, and/or clichéd;
- the male love interest is a stereotypically handsome and stupid muscleman who is usually rescued by the heroine and does little to advance the plot;
- other male characters are drawn from such clichés as the limpwristed metrosexual and the brave moron;
- all the main powerful characters are female;
- all the male characters without exception conform to certain beauty standards (well-defined muscles, pretty hair and so on) whereas the female characters have a range of body types suited to their different professions;

then I might believe that sexism in literature and film is dying.

(This statement brought from a Western perspective, 'cause that's what I know best.)

(Post a new comment)

	lightningflash8 2006-05-04 12:14 pm UTC (link)
	So write it already. :P (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sarah_frost 2006-05-04 12:16 pm UTC (link)
	It'd only be writing to prove a point. :P Better to go with "not sexist at all" than "reverse sexism to highlight how much men would probably complain if they rarely got to see decent male characters". (Reply to this) (Parent)

	scarab_dynasty 2006-05-04 06:36 pm UTC (link)
	Anna holds wisdom beyond her years :P Hey our lil group fulfils ALL OF THESE criteria :D (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sarah_frost 2006-05-05 06:35 am UTC (link)
	Feef's the Glamorous Villainess, Anna the Spunky Heroine, Kellamy her Rescued Stu, you the Innocent Chosen One and Rotgut the Token Male? :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	lightningflash8 2006-05-05 11:35 am UTC (link)
	H is the Tech Genius. Who are you? :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sarah_frost 2006-05-05 11:37 am UTC (link)
	In Sueish preference the Warrior, in actual likelihood the Wise Ancient Advisor ~~laughing up her sleeve at the incompetent heroes~~. :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	lightningflash8 2006-05-05 11:38 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, you're the Nice Know-It-All. That way I get to do the fighting. :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sarah_frost 2006-05-05 11:39 am UTC (link)
	Yup. And dragging off pretty boys by their hair. :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	lightningflash8 2006-05-05 11:41 am UTC (link)
	For what intent and purpose? :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sarah_frost 2006-05-05 11:42 am UTC (link)
	...Playing Battleships? :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	lightningflash8 2006-05-05 11:44 am UTC (link)
	Hee! I believe you. ;P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	scarab_dynasty 2006-05-05 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	I love you two. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	lightningflash8 2006-05-06 05:37 am UTC (link)
	I love you two too! ^^ (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sarah_frost 2006-05-07 03:17 am UTC (link)
	joins in the loving :P (Reply to this) (Parent)

	scarab_dynasty 2006-05-05 07:00 pm UTC (link)
	And I WILL be drawing this, by the way :p (Stuff whether or not the college wants me.) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sarah_frost 2006-05-05 07:38 pm UTC (link)
	Yay! :P You can be the Sensitive Artistic One too. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	scarab_dynasty 2006-05-05 08:57 pm UTC (link)
	You're trying to Sue me, that's what yu're doing :P so which one of us can change gender at random intervals? :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sarah_frost 2006-05-05 09:00 pm UTC (link)
	But you already ARE perfect! :P (Ly Scarab. :P ) I reckon Rotgut. He's lonely as the only guy. :P (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	scarab_dynasty 2006-05-05 09:09 pm UTC (link)
	I don't WANNA be perfect, I need flaws, flaws make masterpieces :P I dunno if he'd like that =S :P (Reply to this) (Parent)

*groans* here I go again...

scarab_dynasty
2006-05-04 06:35 pm UTC (link)

If you can provide me with even one example of a book/movie/show resembling the following:

- the hero, the villain and the majority of their associates are female;
- those few males who appear are minor, ineffective, and/or clichéd;
- the male love interest is a stereotypically handsome and stupid muscleman who is usually rescued by the heroine and does little to advance the plot;
- other male characters are drawn from such clichés as the limpwristed metrosexual and the brave moron;
- all the main powerful characters are female;
- all the male characters without exception conform to certain beauty standards (well-defined muscles, pretty hair and so on) whereas the female characters have a range of body types suited to their different professions;

then I might believe that sexism in literature and film is dying.

…you’re kinda generalising here too, y’know that? I know you perhaps haven’t seen as many films as I have but you’ve probably read more books, and I always held out more hope for literature, since more intelligent people read than do watch movies ;) But it seems you’re addressing a percentage here (though not necessarily a small one, it’s not the ONLY on, either) – you’re talking about things like Dragon Booster and those ridiculous old fashioned He-Man style programs. Ace Lightning.

But males have their own range of unflattering stereotypes. (Lord Fear, anymore? It’s less likely that, were he a female villain, that he would be characterised as he was.) smarmy, overconfident male with homosexual undertones (note third characteristic has no connection to the other two)? The big stupid person in fiction who helps the good guys but is Not very bright? Usually male.

Anyway I checked out your statement. I couldn’t find a movie that fit all the criteria though when you think about it, that’d be pretty damn hard to do, regardless of what you were questioning.

the hero, the villain and the majority of their associates are female;

“Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistle Stop Café” – movie, women communicating with women. That said, one main woman is a housewife (but she does gain independence and confidence – sorta the plot)

“Sister Red”: A manga, the only male character who’s been solid so far is. There was another male villain but he was kind of an “equal” villain alongside his female sister. Neither was really above the other. I’ve SO got to find you a copy of that (I;m not willing to give up my own ;)) as it’s a little old in comic terms.

those few males who appear are minor, ineffective, and/or clichéd

Any number of non-romance shoujo manga. Pick em up, seriously, it’s ridiculous. It’s almost like Y: The Last man without the Y in some of em.

Again in sister red, there’s the smart ass male villain alongside his sister, and there’s another boy who is apparently the brains of the group – stereotyped geek kid.

I really don’t see what this has to do with sexism. I believe you may be making a connection between there being a lot of cliché females, but that doesn’t mean that, or that males should BE ineffective. Who wants ineffectual characters, even if they’re male? And especially if it’s just a means by which to make the females look good. Female characters can do that alone without help from stupid people.

- all the main powerful characters are female;

…well, all the villains I’ve ever written have been ^_^

- other male characters are drawn from such clichés as the limpwristed metrosexual and the brave moron;

The windsinger… actually I didn’t much like this story (it was the writing that irked me, but not for characterisations.) Mumpo rocked ^_^ an absolute idiot, most stupid boy in the class, but brave and good to his friends, even if they’re mean to him. He was pretty much one of the only characters with any… well, character, but at least they were mostly flat rather than stereotyped

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: *groans* here I go again...

scarab_dynasty
2006-05-04 06:35 pm UTC (link)

Overall though, sexism is still all over the shop though it’s far better now than it used to be. It IS dying, though, hell, it could move a whole lot faster X( You know I DRAW a lot of these stereotyped women, though I don’t usually write them, and a lot of stereotyped males (in fact, get this –the How To Draw Anime & Manga Game characters” book I have? It actually specifices how TALL and what shape the different characters -e.g. heroine, male hero, sultry villianess, dumb strong guy- should be. I mean, seriously… wtf? That’s more general stereotyping than sexism, though. But still the FEMALE characters WERE so much more… suggestive, than the males. Though there were a few “feminine” looking males.

*sigh* L someday, Sarahness… someday.

Oh that reminds me, you asked me on the phone a while back? You asked me a question “How can you be for the progression if you’re not a part of the progression.” I finally have a decent answer for you– I can

a) demand the same pay as the guy who does the same job (lifting the same weight, taking on the same tasks etc) and sue if I’m refused. If the courts then ignore me, then I get pissy and the protests start and it’s likely there are at least SOME non-sexist people who will listen.
b) Write letters and get forceful when it is implied that a woman was insulted/sacked/whatever because of her gender. Again - if the courts then ignore me, then I get pissy and the protests start.
c) Continue to buy comic books from the local comic store and ignore any male who attempts to stare me down for DOING it (it’s actually only happened twice, and I get more positive attention than bad, which reminds me now of my afterthought…
d) Choose to do jobs males usually do if I find them enjoyable. Again, ignore anyone who suggests I do otherwise. If they really are so shallow that they need me to prove my worth then I guess I’ll have to entertain them, because turning DOWN the opportunity wouldn’t get me anywhere.

= I can not use being female to my advantage for either sexual of malicious purposes, such as in order to get away with crimes. Or manipulate child benefits if I was a single mother. Then I’ll have the perfect right to uphold the aforementioned a) b) and c)

(I’ve been trying to think of an answer to that for weeks :P.)

Of course, I know what you’re going to think of all this, but what the heck, Sarah, SOMEBODY has to play devils advocate, or else we’ll be fighting forever.) The job of the devils advocate is to weigh up the odds and make things fair, not to “weaken” the argument and water it down.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	*Re: groans* here I go again... sarah_frost** 2006-05-04 09:16 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, they're all good things to do. ^_^ Go you. I think, though, in general terms, that when the scales are unbalanced the way to balance them is to concentrate on one side or the other rather than jumping onto the middle of them and sitting there. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: *groans* here I go again...

sarah_frost
2006-05-04 09:09 pm UTC (link)

The point wasn't to say "This would be the Ideal Feminist Tome", because it frankly isn't (most of the feminist-written books I've read actually do a pretty good job of writing men) but to reverse some tropes that are very, very common in stories. It is very, very common (in Western lit) to have this sort of arrangement, a male-centred world where the only main female character's the Love Interest and she's helpless and irritating, and my point was that the other way around tends not to exist. You're right it would be hard to do, because that doesn't happen. But even Indiana Jones, to utilise FamousPopCulture here, has the arrangement of lots of powerful male plot movers and a Female Love Interest (okay, in the third one she was a bit more than that). It's common to have this reversed. Too common.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: *groans* here I go again...

sarah_frost
2006-05-04 09:13 pm UTC (link)

I remember reading something like this from a Fandom Wank link: "There is no male/male porn written by and for women in which both guys are straight, both guys remain straight, they don't get pleasure from having sex with each other, and do it specificially for female pleasure" (I'm sure there's some slash out there that might fulfill that criteria, but not much.) The point wasn't "I wanna read about straight guys doing naughty and badly written things to each other" but "a lot of lesbian porn made for straight men is like this".

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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